The Great Return To Work Debate, Persistence Pays at Google

In this episode of the Futurrizm Tech Career Podcast, we tackle The Great Return To Work Debate after computer Giant Dell resorts to strong-arm tactics to compel its employees to get back to the office. Needless to say, threats of no promotions or role changes did not reflect well in its annual "Tell Dell" survey. We also talk about the inspiring story of Annie Wang, who, despite getting rejected seven times by Google, managed to land her dream job there and the lessons everyone can learn from her approach and perseverance.  

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Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 2:09 The Great Return to Work Debate
• 14:28 Persistence Pays at Google
• 35:07 Outro

Transcript

00:15.51
futurizm
Hello and welcome to the second episode of the Futurism podcast with me, Peter Scott and our resident recruitment expert, Will Grady. Will, how are you getting on?

00:27.64
Will Grady 
Yeah, I'm good, Pete. Thank you for the, again, very humble introduction. we'll i think I think we'll get that one out of you over time. I don't feel particularly comfortable with resident recruitment experts. Just Will is fine.

00:40.54
futurizm
what would what What would you? Oh, just will. Okay then.

00:42.29
Will Grady 
Just Will, Will, Will's fine.

00:43.32
futurizm
Alright, fair enough. Okay. um How's your wheat been, mate? You've got a beer this time.

00:47.97
Will Grady 
No beer, um not for the want of, you know, not... having one. ah yeah I'd love to have a beer right now, but so um I'm saving myself this afternoon, actually.

00:54.79
futurizm
ah

00:56.95
Will Grady 
It's Friday, isn't it? so

00:58.06
futurizm
Yeah. Fair enough, fair enough. Well, during the last episode when we predicted that it would just be our dads listening to the PODDY, well, I've got some stats for you. We actually had a grand total of 11 downloads for the very first episode. I know, right?

01:14.97
Will Grady 
Not bad, actually. yeah do we have any more like Do we have any more insight as to who, where, what?

01:16.35
futurizm
you know i

01:20.53
futurizm
Well, I think most of them were in Europe, but we also have two listeners in North America and one in Asia, but they could also just be VPNs as well. So I probably wouldn't pay too much attention to the location. Um, but what are your thoughts?

01:33.32
Will Grady 
Well, safe to say that my dad definitely doesn't have a VPN, so that eliminates him. I don't know. I mean, 11, it's a star, isn't it?

01:43.57
futurizm
I mean, I think by anyone's standards, we can basically say that the Futurism tech career podcast is an overnight sensation.

01:51.74
Will Grady 
that is it this it There's only one way it can go, really, isn't there? There's only one way it can go.

01:57.15
futurizm
but That's true, and let's let's hope for that. So when to our 11 listeners, including Will's dad, John Boy, thank you so much for subscribing to us. And we'd love to hear from you if there's anything you'd like us to discuss and if you have any feedback. So drop me an email at pete at futurism.io.

02:17.97
Will Grady 
And I'd like to extend my personal gratitude.

02:20.95
futurizm
yeah

02:22.08
Will Grady 
We fucked it! yeah

02:26.60
futurizm
ah but sorry yeah I cut you off with the transition there, mate. but's ah

02:31.66
Will Grady 
What's this all about? I've got no voice!

02:35.34
futurizm
all right Who would you like to extend your personal gratitude to?

02:39.52
Will Grady 
No, I think we've got to start again now, mate.

02:41.81
futurizm
We've got No, we've got to go on.

02:43.12
Will Grady 
Shall we start again?

02:44.42
futurizm
We've got to go on. okay so like i think it's I think it's fine.

02:45.40
Will Grady 
ah for

02:48.91
futurizm
I think it's fine.

02:50.01
Will Grady 
I don't think so, mate.

02:50.22
futurizm
but yeah all right job gone You go.

02:51.01
Will Grady 
I think we've got to fucking start again. Come on.

02:56.51
Will Grady 
What do you want me to say?

02:57.72
futurizm
I just cut it out. Whatever you're going to say, I don't know what you're going to say.

03:01.33
Will Grady 
I've lost the moment now, mate.

03:02.82
futurizm
All right. All right. I'll start again. So to our 11 listeners, including where you just...

03:04.71
Will Grady 
Start again.

03:08.41
Will Grady 
Should we just start again?

03:08.45
futurizm
So to our 11 list...

03:09.67
Will Grady 
so we just i think I think we could just start again, mate. Honestly, it's only like...

03:11.80
futurizm
No, mate, I think i can cut I can cut this all out. Honestly, I can cut this all out.

03:14.99
Will Grady 
Are you sure?

03:15.11
futurizm
It's going to be easy. I'll just do that last sentence. Yeah.

03:18.40
Will Grady 
um

03:19.42
futurizm
So to our level listeners, including Will's dad, John Boy, thank you so much for subscribing to us. We'd love to hear from you if there's anything you'd like us to discuss and if you have any feedback. So do drop me an email at pete at futurism.io.

03:38.47
futurizm
did Did you not have something to add to that, Will?

03:41.52
Will Grady 
yeah

03:48.64
Will Grady 
oh Wait, honestly? No, because I told you, you killed the moment when the transit you caught me all off short with the transition.

03:53.59
futurizm
right all right all right then all right well let's let's uh let's push on then okay i'll do the transition again

03:55.46
Will Grady 
So I'm now just like, well, no, it feels disingenuous. Let's crack on.

04:10.33
futurizm
Now we're going to kick off this episode with the great return to work debate. Despite COVID having dropped out of the headlines yonks ago, the discussion over whether employees should go back to the office and whether employers can tempt them to is still raging. Take computer giant Dell, for example, which has tried to force its staff to go back to its offices with punitive measures if they don't comply. Back in February, the company introduced a return to work mandate, telling workers to classify themselves as either hybrid or remote.

04:41.28
futurizm
which on the face of things seems fair enough. But if you classify yourself as remote, you can't get promoted and can't change role. And if you're hybrid, you have to go in about three days a week. According to Business Insider, around 50% of the company's employees have chosen to stay and work remotely.

04:56.53
Will Grady 
Thanks.

05:00.16
futurizm
Now, unsurprisingly, Dell's employees are pretty pissed off and they've not been afraid to show it in the annual Tell Dell survey with this year's Employee Net Promoter Score, ENPS, which basically in English is just a measure of the likelihood that employees would recommend Dell as a place to work. Well, that's dropped from 62 to 48 and that's out of almost 100,000 employees. So, well, quite a lot to unpack there. But before we get into it, tell me about your experience working from home. A fan, not a fan.

05:36.60
Will Grady 
Yeah, it's a good question. i mean I'm trying to. I mean, the last few years have been a massive blur, haven't they? I mean, COVID hit. And I don't know about you, but I kind of just feel like it's this surreal part of my life that didn't really exist. It was it was bizarre. And obviously, our working practices changed so substantially during that time. um yeah We were forced to work from home. um I think it's all fair to say that we you know I mean, I definitely did wear a shirt and some um pajama bottoms on on on meetings, no no doubt about that. um It's an emotive topic, isn't it? I mean, I think ultimately, that so you know we should have a grown up conversation of well what is it that you prefer? And I think, yeah, I mean, I can see both sides of the story. And I know that's quite a diplomatic answer, which is probably not very akin to how I usually

06:36.37
Will Grady 
would speak, but but but ultimately, um some people like going to the office.

06:41.04
futurizm
Well, you included as well.

06:41.84
Will Grady 
um I know me?

06:46.09
futurizm
Yeah, you know, or sometimes get get out the house, give a bit of structure to your day, you know, find it easier to work.

06:46.41
Will Grady 
Well,

06:52.66
futurizm
If not an actual office, then at least, ah you know, maybe a co-working space.

06:57.87
Will Grady 
Yeah, you're right. So I mean, I think, yeah, some people love to get in the office, they love to get amongst it, they they like to interact, they like the routine. And people that want to work in the office on a hybrid basis, or on a full time basis, then I think ultimately, you know, if that's what they want to do, then great. um But if people don't, in this day and age, come on, I mean, I've got two little ones. And fortunately, you know, I

07:24.14
futurizm
Mm hmm.

07:27.21
Will Grady 
who spend most of my time at home now or in ah in a working space. um But it's difficult you know if you you know for families and the pressures that they're on and the commute. I mean, I'm thinking about tech hub cities, you know but yeah places like London, San Francisco, Austin, New York. It's not particularly easy to get into the office on a daily basis, particularly in the States.

07:47.82
futurizm
Hmm.

07:52.61
Will Grady 
You've got to drive a long way. um And I just think that, you know, why can't we just not give people that flexibility? And I know exactly why, because most of these tech businesses have got massive fucking leases on very, very expensive buildings that they need to honor and they need to get people in.

08:13.12
futurizm
Yeah.

08:14.74
Will Grady 
and

08:14.85
futurizm
Well, this is it, isn't it? It's COVID and the whole working for home has proven that you don't need to go into the office to work ah efficiently. And that as you say, these companies have these buildings in prime locations and they're paying unimaginable amounts of money um to keep them up. um So do you think that's why Dell is andel has has not said this? It says that um it um It says in-person connections are paired with a flexible approach and they are critical to driving innovation and value differentiation. We'll come on to that shortly. um But what are your thoughts on the strong arm tactics that Dell is employing to try and coax its employees back into the office? Some people could basically call it blackmail.

09:04.20
Will Grady 
it's pretty fucking It's pretty fucking draconian, isn't it? I mean, ultimately, you know it's like, yes, you can't get a promotion if you don't come to the office.

09:06.72
futurizm
Yeah.

09:12.76
Will Grady 
So that's kind of...

09:12.96
futurizm
Yeah, and you can't change role.

09:14.90
Will Grady 
Yeah, it's kind of indirectly suggesting that, you know, you'll be employed by our business. And if you work from home now, then, you know, that's, a yeah, you're basically a discrimination, isn't it? I mean, it really is. It's kind of like, well, you're not going to get any advantages.

09:28.50
futurizm
Yeah.

09:31.66
Will Grady 
from us, and yeah even based on the merit of your work. And there's so many people that are very used to working from home, even prior to COVID, and are super productive and very good. And in this day and age, I mean, come on, I understand this whole spirit of collaboration. and you know But let's also not kid ourselves that you know all these companies at the moment are ultimately painting themselves as being these kind of Nirvana's of innovation, if you come to the office, and that's just fucking bollocks.

10:00.78
futurizm
Mmhmm.

10:04.50
Will Grady 
It really is because they're not, you know, yes, it's nice sometimes to have some face time with people. Absolutely. um But at the same time, you know, this kind of gaslighting ah from these big corporate businesses saying like, yeah, but when you're in the office, we can innovate and create this amazing, wonderful world of of um technology innovation. And it that's just that's just bollocks. It's just not not true.

10:30.87
futurizm
it's Yeah, it's so it's so weird. And obviously there are there are benefits to having you know time face to face with people, you know getting out of your home, putting faces to names and you know there's less room for misinterpretation over chatting via Slack or by email, et cetera. But it just seems odd that a computer a computer firm, Dell, a tech firm, which you would normally think of as being progressive, would insist on this. And you would have also thought that one of the benefits for companies of remote work is that they can then avail themselves of a huge global talent pool. Whereas by insisting that people come into an office, then you're limiting your talent pool to people in that geographical area.

11:18.53
Will Grady 
You're right. And I think, um you know again, as I said, it's it really is a divisive topic. I can understand the argument of when you're in the office, you know it does help build relationships. It does help drive innovation. And also, yes, things can be misconstrued when you know you're in that kind of digital environment or digital collaboration environment. But actually, allow people to make that decision for themselves. you know And I think you know by kind of we're not we're not back at school you know this way.

11:53.25
Will Grady 
It's like mandatory compulsory attendance and all this kind of stuff. It's like, look, you need to give people in this day and age trust and and empower them to ultimately go and let them go and let them work.

12:01.60
futurizm
She had like grown ups.

12:04.70
Will Grady 
But you're absolutely right as well. i mean you know I mean, the people that i that I work with. I mean, I'm thinking about my own personal story here, but after COVID, um when I was working for for Google, they were pretty cool, actually, about the kind of working from home environment. And I, for personal reasons, purely on the basis, really, that I wanted to sort of make sure that I was visible and supporting my family with things like the school runs, pick ups, drop offs and all that kind of good stuff.

12:36.75
futurizm
Yeah.

12:38.58
Will Grady 
It was much easier for me to be able to do that than having to kind of commute in and out of London. and where I would have lost, I don't know, an hour and a half a day in just purely commuting.

12:48.84
futurizm
yeah

12:50.58
Will Grady 
So there is that kind of time trade off, but ultimately Google said to me, look, you were are able to apply for remote working contract, should you wish, and we will assess it. And basically, you know, they look at the job description, they look at kind of what your function and role is on a day to day basis. you know And I think they understood that as a recruiter, you know was it really mandatory that I needed to be in the office? Not really. Of course, you know it's always good to kind of go and have FaceTime with people.

13:23.87
Will Grady 
um you know And they weren't restricting me from doing that, but they granted me a remote contract.

13:28.89
futurizm
Yeah.

13:29.21
Will Grady 
um ah you know And I think that was progressive and and and and fair to to allow me to to be able to do that. Do I like working from home?

13:37.22
futurizm
So you guys.

13:38.79
Will Grady 
Not really. I couldn't say I'm a massive fan of working from home. um I would probably prefer to be in an office environment maybe one, two days a week. But, and and and I say this with absolute candour, that um you know because I've got a a young family, it really does help me balance that so that I can be effective with work, but also you know meet my obligations as a dad um without having to kind of worry too much. so And that's the main reason why I took a remote contract at Google.

14:12.26
futurizm
Yeah. Well, it seems like Michael S. Dell could certainly take a leaf out of Google's book when it comes to this. um And a purely speculative question, but do you think we're going to see a U-turn from Dell, especially in the wake of that disastrous Tell Dell survey?

14:29.12
Will Grady 
the tell Dell survey.

14:30.75
futurizm
Yeah.

14:31.18
Will Grady 
buts and Yeah, that didn't go too well.

14:33.75
futurizm
And they said it did tell Dell.

14:36.14
Will Grady 
Well, I think, I mean, I can only speak from the perception of, you know, of of a company like Dell. um I mean, you know, and some people may feel differently about this and, you know, they're obviously a reputable business. Are they looked upon as being a progressive business in in the technology industry? I wouldn't say they probably are. I think they're looked upon as being more of a conservative

14:55.76
futurizm
No.

14:58.83
Will Grady 
old school technology business, um you know, comparison to sort of your big tech firms like your Metas and Apples and Googles, etc. But I think, you know, ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. And, you know, people will, um you know, look at this, you know, with and vote with their feet, ultimately. And, um you know, I would imagine that they will risk losing good people. um You know, they're not the only business out there at the moment that are kind of flexing their muscles on this on this topic as well.

15:33.09
Will Grady 
And yeah, it's ah I think ultimately the proof is in the pudding. And I think they will lose people, good people.

15:42.09
futurizm
Yeah.

15:42.15
Will Grady 
But My personal take on this is it's just down to having grown up conversations. Give people the choice. um You'll probably find that I would imagine most people would probably want to work either full time remote or have some level of you know hybrid. But having it mandatory to be in the office? No, don't think so.

16:05.85
futurizm
Yeah, I'm punishing those who don't want to be in the office. um Yeah, I think we'll have to wait and see how this plays out for Dell and its employees. As always, we'd like to hear your thoughts on the great work from home debate. Where do you stand? Can you go back to the office after working from home or were you desperate to go back to the office? And what do you make of the Dell fiasco? Do contact me at pete at futurism.io.

16:37.71
futurizm
And now from one large technology company to one big tech firm, Google, and more specifically, the story of how one particularly tenacious young lady, Annie Wang, landed a job there. As you'd expect, it wasn't easy. Annie got rejected not once, not twice, but seven times by Google. But rather than losing hope, Annie knuckled down. ah to But rather than losing hope, Annie knuckled down, worked on her weak spots, or should I say, development areas. Well, um Annie failed twice to become an intern. Her CV ah then didn't pass the initial screening process three times. The role she applied for was cancelled because of COVID, and then she failed to give an optimal solution in a phone interview.

17:18.88
futurizm
But through a combination of interview prep, brushing up on tech skills, tailoring her resume and approach to interviews, and even turning down an interview Apple to focus on her Google prep, Annie landed her dream job. Well, unfortunately, we don't have Annie here now, but we still do have Will to walk us through this. Well, certainly an inspirational story there, um but you've also worked at Google. How did you land your job there and how many times were you rejected? I do feel like a bit of a bad friend for not knowing this already.

17:52.23
Will Grady 
um Well, fair play to Annie. um Seven Rejections is, yeah, I mean, relatively tenacious, but um she did way better than me. I think it definitely took me a lot more than that. And I don't know if I should be a bit of this sort live, but yeah, i it took me way more. um It actually took me way...

18:14.01
futurizm
Don't mean to get business inside to write an article about you instead.

18:17.50
Will Grady 
Yeah, please. Yeah. I mean um mean, obviously, seven, congratulations. It took me well over 20. I say that with it ah with total honesty.

18:23.54
futurizm
Wow.

18:28.76
Will Grady 
um

18:29.17
futurizm
Right, I mean, sorry to interrupt, Will, but 20 is insane.

18:31.33
Will Grady 
Yeah.

18:32.99
futurizm
I mean, i ah did you not lose hope? Did you wonder if it was worth it? Why we are we so keen to to work at Google?

18:43.52
Will Grady 
Yeah, so I think I was yeah, I i mean, I think Google reputation Lee, probably one of the best companies, if not the best company reputation Lee on the planet. um probably not done themselves many favors over the last year or two with how they've treated some of their staff in in letting them go. So you know maybe that reputation has been slightly hindered, but still a really, really solid reputation. and And lots of people come to me now and say, look, it's my dream to work for Google.

19:14.81
Will Grady 
Can you help me? Or can you give me some insight into this? And so yeah reputationally, in terms of innovation and culture, and you know do they are

19:21.24
futurizm
you

19:25.73
Will Grady 
pretty much number one. um Why did I want to work there? Well, because of that, um because of ah the pedigree of that business. And yeah, I was i was tenacious. um It was difficult for me probably because when I started to initially apply at Google, I didn't have really too much experience in the technology industry. um I don't know too much about Annie and what her background is. um So, you know, that probably was a factor of why I was not entertained as a candidate.

20:00.62
Will Grady 
um But he's only when I started to work for Amazon Web Services later on in my career where I started to get some traction. um But yeah, i I did. I think it's fair to say and I have to be honest that, you know, maybe when I initially started applying to Google,

20:12.94
futurizm
Mm hmm.

20:18.81
Will Grady 
it was more opportunistic than going, hey, you know what? I feel like I'm absolutely perfect for this role. I was probably being a little bit um optimistic and chancing my arm a little bit.

20:26.08
futurizm
Right.

20:32.44
Will Grady 
but so But also, we have to remember at Google, and this is why you do have to be tenacious in applying for these mega desirable organizations, is that competition is fierce. um You're looking at data, I think, came out recently, acceptance rates at Google, and I think It blew my mind this data, but it's but it's accurate, relevant, recent data that's 26 times harder to get into Google than Harvard University.

21:05.13
Will Grady 
I mean, that is mental.

21:05.21
futurizm
Wow. Yeah.

21:07.67
Will Grady 
ah So I have to be honest, how I got in, and um all I'll know. And Jesus, honestly, take me as an inspiration, because if I can get into Google, anyone can. Really?

21:23.13
futurizm
so So what do you think, what are the lessons to be learned from Annie's story? You know, what can anyone looking for a job at Google learn from it? And what advice would you give to everyone who wants to work there? but Don't give up, you know, write a specific resume for each job, work on your weak spots. What would you say?

21:44.94
Will Grady 
Yeah, I'll try not to give cliched responses. I think, of course, yeah don't give up. I think in in any job situation these days, it's a tough job market out there. And I think you know if you want to go and work for these organizations, you do have to have some tenacity. There's no doubt about that. But I think that's a given.

22:03.70
futurizm
Yeah.

22:04.12
Will Grady 
um you know If you're looking to apply to a top company like an Apple, a Google, an Amazon, the first thing you need to do is you need to accept that there's going to be an enormous amount of competition.

22:14.72
futurizm
Hmm.

22:16.69
Will Grady 
Everybody wants to work for these companies, particularly young, impressionable graduates, people who are at the early stages of their career. They're absolutely seduced and mesmerized by by these types of organization. um So I think quite really a few a few kind of tips from myself would be, you know firstly, It's not personal. So ultimately, if you apply for these roles and you don't get an interview or you don't get any feedback or you're rejected, don't take it personally because, you know, I can tell you now it's it's not uncommon to receive 500 applications, even a thousand applications for a role.

22:59.48
futurizm
Wow.

23:00.69
Will Grady 
and So don't take it personally. Just dust yourself down on that basis. and And sometimes it's just not the right time. you know And they may have internal candidates. There's so many things that you don't know what's going on behind the scenes. So don't shoot yourself over if it if it doesn't work out with an application. And just dust yourself down and and and and go again. There are some probably more specific tips that I would probably give. um Firstly, you've got to really jazz up your resume and LinkedIn profile.

23:32.71
Will Grady 
You can't send a cookie cutter resume um to a company like Google. You've got to read the job description. You've got to make sure that your resume is tailored to that job description. I'm not saying embellish it in any shape or form, but just make sure that you are really optimizing it against the job description and really bring into

23:47.25
futurizm
No.

23:54.23
Will Grady 
bring into the table what you've achieved um to grab the attention of them, you know to really showcase your skills. that's I mean, it's a simple given again, but it's absolutely imperative. um You have to invest some time in that um to make sure that you're really representing yourself properly. I would say as well, and these are probably a little bit more a little bit more niche, If you're technical and you want to go and work for a company like Google, you want to go and work for a company like i Amazon Web Services or Meta, go and do some professional certifications.

24:31.43
Will Grady 
Now, these professional certifications out there, a lot of them are free. um You can literally just go on the websites of these companies. Google offer an absolute plethora of certifications.

24:44.09
futurizm
Mm hmm.

24:44.77
Will Grady 
um And go and upskill yourself in their tech stack. And I guarantee you, if you're if you're a technologist, and not even if a technologist, even if you're somebody that works in ah HR or finance, um but you've got some certifications in the organization that you're looking to apply to, it really does help you stand out because it shows you have a passion for their technology. You're trying to learn and develop yourself by showing an interest in their technology. And I guarantee you, this is from my own personal experience, that people that have certifications

25:18.03
Will Grady 
I've got a much better chance of getting an interview that somebody that doesn't have certification. So I'd always recommend having a look at those certs. And I think probably the final one would probably be, don't, don't kiss the ass of the company. And there's nothing more cringe worthy in an interview. And I've done many thousands probably.

25:43.22
futurizm
Yeah, I bet you have.

25:44.76
Will Grady 
There's so many times people will come into an interview when I've interviewed at Google or Amazon or at Meta and somebody's come in and they've gone, it's such an honor to be here. And it's like, really? Are we really going down?

25:56.70
futurizm
That's quite yeah that's bike cringe. That is a bit cringe.

26:00.55
Will Grady 
Yeah, but and it's just it's just kiss ass.

26:00.86
futurizm
It's like Fluttery's gonna get you nowhere.

26:07.63
Will Grady 
These companies, they're just companies. You know, there's a famous song, I will not recite it in full, but there's a famous song by ah a UK rapper or poet called Scroobius Pip.

26:10.45
futurizm
Yeah.

26:22.60
Will Grady 
And yeah, yeah it's fine I didn't think he would have.

26:22.93
futurizm
Never heard of him.

26:25.92
Will Grady 
and

26:27.21
futurizm
Now, if it's not Muse or Reuxop or Unkle, then yeah, I wouldn't know.

26:27.60
Will Grady 
but

26:30.97
Will Grady 
Okay, fair play. But basically he basically says I'm so tired of people putting musicians on pedestals. um For example, the Beatles, they were just a band, four guys from Liverpool. Oasis just a band, you know, they're just normal people.

26:51.09
futurizm
Yeah.

26:51.95
Will Grady 
And the same applies for companies. They're just companies. They're not gods. They're not, you know, but they may think they are. They may paint the picture that they are, but they're just normal everyday people. And I just see so many people go and apply to these companies like, oh, applying to Apple, it's my absolute dream to work for Apple. And then they turn off and go to the interview and they're like, oh, it's just it's just such an honor to be here. And and and it's just like, come on, show you know don't kiss ass.

27:17.50
futurizm
Yeah.

27:21.86
Will Grady 
Know your worth because you're just as good as the people that are working there. And always remember that. And I just think that's really important. Of course, be respectful, but don't fucking grovel.

27:31.65
futurizm
Yeah.

27:34.87
futurizm
I feel these companies as as well, they know the value of their name and they know that people are going to be desperate to work for them. And I'm not saying specifically about Google now, because I've never worked for them, but I did work for Reuters, a prestigious news agency, international, great at the job.

27:47.28
Will Grady 
you

27:54.55
futurizm
The people there were lovely, but but I really felt there was sort of almost a sense of ah of arrogance and the fact that they they used their name to And the fact that you were working there, that you should be grateful to work for Reuters and therefore, you know, they'll expect you to work 200 hours a week with no pay. They'd expect you to give up your lunch break every day. They'd expect you to work three hours over time, but still turn up at the exact same time in the morning because you inverted commas have the privilege of working for that company.

28:25.70
Will Grady 
No, absolutely. And it's funny, isn't it? Because, and, you know, I'm not here to dig out any of the organizations that I've worked for, but I think it's but i think it's important to

28:33.79
futurizm
No, of course not.

28:37.94
Will Grady 
There's job hiring processes. They're not two-way. They're bloody one-way. And they're one-way in the favor of the company that's hiring. And I get so pissed off where they say, it's a two-way process. so Well, if it's a two-way process, why don't you split the interview into half? Why don't you let somebody that's going to that interview interview you and actually get some real data and information and insight of what it's like to work there?

28:56.51
futurizm
Yeah.

29:04.52
Will Grady 
instead of just giving them five minutes at the end to squeeze in a question or two, because you're so you're so honored to have that opportunity to ask them.

29:09.31
futurizm
Yeah.

29:13.01
Will Grady 
And yeah i before I got into the technology industry, I worked in the oil and gas industry, as you know. And it was my dream as I worked in the oil and gas industry to go and work for an organization like BP, a very prestigious company in Britain, a very prestigious company in the oil and gas industry, and probably the worst company I worked for. They were absolutely fucking shit.

29:36.29
futurizm
Really, really.

29:36.53
Will Grady 
They were yeah they were and just awful. it And again, it was all about, you know, it's so amazing to work for BP.

29:43.67
futurizm
Yeah.

29:43.84
Will Grady 
It's says hot such an honour. And they were crap. They were just absolutely awful.

29:46.55
futurizm
Yeah. Yeah, it's such a shame. And I think like, you know, as you get older and as you you you go and you have different jobs, your career develops, you you really appreciate, you know, you know what you look for in a job and a company um at the end of the day. And I think it's only through sort of trial and error that you can really gain that sort of thing. um but Unless it's through, I don't know, sorry, I don't know where I was going with that point. Like, how would you recommend, you know, someone who's looking to work for a job at, say, Google, BP, Meta, Microsoft, whatever it is, to find out what the culture is like there and whether they're a fit so they don't have a similar experience to you working at BP where you're disappointed.

30:30.50
Will Grady 
Well, it's there's always, I mean, there's always risk. I mean, so for example, you could go and join a company that are really kind of awful in many regards, even though you yeah were hoping that they wouldn't be, but you have an amazing boss, um or vice versa.

30:44.48
futurizm
Yeah.

30:45.98
Will Grady 
You could go and join an amazing company and have a shit boss. um you know So I think a lot of the time, It's dictated by who you're working for a lot of the time. You know you could have a really, really great environment working for somebody that you love working for, but maybe not be so crazy about the company. um So I think it's it's difficult because when you go and try and gather this information and data by talking to individuals at that company, they just fucking smokescreen you. I mean, honestly, thousands of interviews, I'm saying, and so many times people candidates will ask the hiring manager, i what's it like to work here?

31:15.47
futurizm
Yeah.

31:23.65
Will Grady 
And you'll just get the same old bullshit of, yeah, the values of the company are really important to us. We're like a family. It's really great. I mean, they're not going to say anything differently, are they?

31:33.92
futurizm
No, no.

31:34.96
Will Grady 
It's hard to get the truth. you know And so I think what might be good is actually going on to LinkedIn and actually approaching former employees of the organization and saying, hey, look, I noticed that you worked at Meta.

31:43.92
futurizm
Mm-hmm.

31:50.71
Will Grady 
yeah What was it like? you know Do you mind if I ask hato what it was like? I'm really trying to build up some proper insight as to what it's like to work for this organization. um you know your Of course, there are many websites out there like Glassdoor and all this sort of stuff that gives you...

32:05.47
futurizm
Yeah, what do you so I was going to ask you about Glassdoor. Sorry for interrupting. Would you say that's a good resource for that sort of thing? Or do you think that and embittered former employees go on there to rant about the company?

32:17.98
Will Grady 
Yeah, i don't I don't think it's great. I don't think you're getting the the value that you would get with having a you know and an open conversation.

32:20.42
futurizm
No.

32:26.44
Will Grady 
So if if I was ah you know somebody working in the technical area, like ah a software engineer or a data scientist, and I was in advanced discussions with yeah know Meta or Google or whoever it may be, um I would definitely try and reach out to people that have been been in the organization recently but they're no longer employed there because they will be able to give you way more kind of what's and all insight into the organization and you know and I really don't think um by approaching those people directly by saying hey look you know I'd really love to try and learn a little bit more insight I noticed you worked there would you mind giving me you know 20 minutes for a coffee or

33:07.62
futurizm
Mmhmm.

33:07.98
Will Grady 
ah quick a quick Zoom call, I think you'll get a lot of good insight there that will, and they won't be frightened because they're working there already to kind of be open. They'll give you more, a more honest account of what it's like to work at those organizations. I think that would be a, I think that's basically what I would do if I was faced with that similar situation.

33:28.75
futurizm
I'm just thinking back now, and this is maybe a bit of a sidestep, well, but I'm just thinking back to my days at university and at school. And I'm not too sure that I was really well prepared, you know, for the world of work and looking for a job. I don't remember anything particular at university.

33:45.56
Will Grady 
Mhm.

33:46.46
futurizm
I think we had a couple of lessons about how to write a CV at school. And that was it. And you know, CVs change, you know, the world moves on. It's not just about the CV anymore. It's about networking. And I don't know, do you think that students these days, I'm sure you've interviewed, you know, a lot of, you know, new graduates, do you think they're prepared for the job search these days?

34:14.42
Will Grady 
Yeah, it's a it's a good question. um And I'm trying to kind of be thoughtful about about the answer because I've kind of encountered the good, the bad and the ugly on all of those sides, really.

34:25.17
futurizm
And I'm sure it's it's been a while as well since you and me have been at school and university. So things may have moved on as well, but yeah.

34:34.60
Will Grady 
ah my My honest opinion is no, I don't think they are prepared. um I think I don't want to sound like this kind of middle aged man now. um But it does concern me that there's there is a, you know, there's, I think if I was faced in the situation that I was faced with when I left university and in you go and start your career, um you know, I think there's a lot to be said for, I mean, there's this huge desire to go and do internships for lots of graduates.

35:11.75
Will Grady 
And you know I have so many interns write to me and say, oh, I really want to go and work for this kind of company. And can you help me? And hey, look, you know it's great to have ambition. It's great to kind of be thinking big about these things. But they only go and do an internship typically for yeah one to three months.

35:29.47
futurizm
Yeah.

35:30.14
Will Grady 
What the fuck can you learn in one to three months? Seriously, what can you what can you learn when you go and on board at an organization like ah i know Google in in one to three months? And the reason I ask that is because actually, you know, you know, I know for sure that companies like Google, Amazon, they'll take, they'll factor in six months of onboarding when you join the organization. And only then really will they start to consider your performance after six months.

36:00.88
futurizm
Mm hmm.

36:01.92
Will Grady 
So if you join for one to three months, you know, what, what do you learn?

36:01.90
futurizm
Mm hmm.

36:06.16
futurizm
It's barely barely enough to get to know anything, the people, the systems, how things work, you know, you don't feel comfortable in your own skin.

36:15.17
Will Grady 
Yeah, and and I think, but again, the the tech industry, it depends what industry I think, you know but I think a lot of it comes down to you know having a good mentor um and and yeah and really kind of yeah working, getting your hands dirty. And you know I see too many youngsters come through and expect because they've done a degree in computer science or they've got their their masters, that they just want to be involved in all the big projects immediately.

36:48.07
Will Grady 
And I think, you know, they call me old fashioned, but I feel that, you know, you've got to earn your stripes. And I think there is an expectancy, particularly of this younger generation coming through, that they're just going to go straight into super strategic work and they're going to be, you know, hanging out with, you know, the exec team, you know, in a matter of weeks. And, you know, ah everybody's in a rush.

37:07.62
futurizm
yeah

37:09.43
Will Grady 
And I and i think, ultimately, you've got to earn your stripes. And that comes through hard work. And I'm not generalizing this, it's just something that I see quite a lot. There are many, many very good young people coming through with amazing attitudes towards work and learning and development. But on the flip side, there are many that come in and have this kind of um yeah real kind of expectancy of, you know, exactly, exactly.

37:32.28
futurizm
Yeah. Self entitlement.

37:37.42
futurizm
Yeah. Wow. I think that's a yeah ah suitable note to leave it there. You know, what I'm going to say now do get in touch with us. If you have your own story of how you did or didn't get to Google the approach you took or how you dealt with the ejection or how you dealt with the rejection, was it worth it? I'm Pete at futurism.io.

38:04.11
futurizm
Well mate, that brings our second potty to an end. I'm glad to see that you figured out how to use the microphone properly this time mate.

38:13.81
Will Grady 
Thanks, Pete.

38:14.00
futurizm
How are you feeling after this second one?

38:17.22
Will Grady 
Yeah, good. It was a lot to unpack there, actually. um I hope our 11 listeners, hopefully soon to be 12 or 13, will appreciate the value that hopefully we've given today and you know some emotive topics.

38:28.80
futurizm
Well, fingers crossed. um Do subscribe to our newsletter. There'll be a link in the description and on LinkedIn, and there you'll also find pro career and resume tips and tricks and lots more. That's all from me, Peter Scott and Will Grady, and we'll see you next time.