Are degrees worth less or worthless? Amazon raises the bar

Are degrees not worth what they once were? We discuss the travails of one millennial, who despite having two degrees (in journalism), has been unemployed since 2020. Roland has found himself in the unenviable position of not having enough practical experience to get hired, while also being overqualified for retail or hospitality work. Hosts Pete and Will discuss where we think he’s gone wrong, how to improve his job search strategy and the advice given to youngsters when choosing their degree. Do they follow their passion or the potential future pay cheque?
Amazon also brings back “Bar Raisers”. We see what this means for the company and candidates alike.

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Transcript

00:14.10
futurizm
Hello and welcome to the Futurism Podcast with me Peter Scott.

00:18.52
Will Grady 
and be well graded.

00:20.14
futurizm
On this week's episode, we want to discuss the value of university or college degrees when it comes to getting a job, as well as Amazon raising the bar for some entry level positions. But before we get to all that, we'd like to share some exciting Futurism news. I mean, ah you might not find it that exciting, but it certainly is for us anyway. Well, first of all, we have a brand spanking new website, futurism.io.

00:47.98
futurizm
So Will, first of all, why has it taken us so long to get a website? I'd like to ask the hard questions here on the Futurism podcast.

01:02.79
Will Grady 
ah Well, i was just contemplating, do I give you an honest answer to this? Or do i check do I try it? So there's a variety of reasons why it's taken us so long. Firstly, finding good people is really fucking hard.

01:15.83
futurizm
Mm hmm.

01:16.27
Will Grady 
um So finding somebody to actually design a website that doesn't look dog shit is really tricky. So there's one reason. So I'm just going to blame it on someone else, you know absorb absolve myself from any form of responsibility.

01:27.23
futurizm
Yeah.

01:30.09
futurizm
Good job.

01:31.21
Will Grady 
ah Secondly, it's actually pretty expensive to get a website up there.

01:35.30
futurizm
Yeah.

01:36.32
Will Grady 
It's cost me a fucking fortune to get it sorted.

01:38.43
futurizm
Yeah.

01:41.21
Will Grady 
I think those are the two primary reasons why it's taken so long.

01:44.07
futurizm
Okay, mate. Well, you ah dealt with that curveball admirably. and why Why do you think our listeners should check out our website?

01:53.67
Will Grady 
Well, I think, ultimately, because it's taken so long and it's cost me a lot of money, they they should go and check out the website. yeah Please. No, ultimately, answer your question directly.

02:03.33
futurizm
Yeah.

02:06.96
Will Grady 
Without being too fucking salesy, um well, it's different. you know this this I think if you if you listen to our podcast by now, you probably understand that we've got a different angle and perspective on things.

02:19.51
Will Grady 
And that's exactly what the website represents, really. It's there to kind of say, look, we're going to give you some pragmatic support. We're going to really kind of open up um as much insight as we can. And ultimately, yeah, I mean, the the language we use in there, it's refreshing. And yeah, I think it's going to be it's not your typical ah CV resume writing career coaching website whatsoever. So um yeah, check it out.

02:44.58
futurizm
Okay, fantastic. And one last question, Will. In 30 seconds, we've got a new service in our range. Can you tell our listeners what it is in 30 seconds?

02:56.61
Will Grady 
and Well, probably not in 30 seconds, no, because my dad recently said I was verbose, so I might struggle with 30 seconds. But um the new offer that we have is basically, I think the whole purpose of why I've created this offer is because not everybody needs their resume fully rewriting. Generally speaking, those kind of services can cost a lot more money.

03:21.39
Will Grady 
So what I've done is I've created something and basically called a resume reality check and it's 15 minutes with myself live on video where we'll get your CV, your resume up on screen and I'll absolutely go to town on it from top to bottom. And ultimately you'll get a good 15 minutes of value out of that. It's all recorded. You'll get AI, transcribe it, send you a video.

03:46.34
Will Grady 
So you can obviously then refer back to the advice that I've given. um you know And it's obviously way more cost-effective, $99 basically for 15 minutes of my time to get something ultimately where you may not have to um fuck around with them resume full rewrites and what have you.

04:02.37
Will Grady 
So it's it's really for yeah people who that might be on a budget or people that just want to sense check, ultimately, is my CV, is my resume okay?

04:04.72
futurizm
Mm hmm.

04:10.39
Will Grady 
And getting an expert to give them the the full verdict.

04:15.70
futurizm
Nice one. Well, I don't have my stopwatch, but I do think that was slightly over 30 seconds. But good job. Well, now we've got our shameless self promotion out of the way. Let's get on with the show.

04:35.13
futurizm
So we're going to start off talking about the value or lack thereof of university degrees when it comes to getting a job. Now, we came across the story in Business Insider of one millennial who, despite having two degrees, hasn't been able to find a job since 2020. Roland Hesmond Hulch, I think that's how it's pronounced, from Virginia, has a degree in multi-platform journalism from the Florida Institute of Technology and a Masters in Journalism from Georgetown. Now that's all good and well, but he says that lots of the journalism positions he's applied for require years of experience, which he doesn't have. But on the other hand, he feels he's been rejected for minimum wage rolls, stacking shelves or flipping burgers because he's overqualified. Will, it seems like he's stuck between a bit of a rock and a hard place here, and I'm sure he's not the only person in this position. What are your initial thoughts?

05:34.88
Will Grady 
you Yeah, I was kind of just ah reviewing the article, actually, as well, because, um you know, it's the professional that I am, you know, it's comes second nature to me.

05:45.45
futurizm
Doing your homework for once.

05:46.33
Will Grady 
Yeah, I did you do a bit of homework.

05:49.87
Will Grady 
I mean, you do put me on the spot with some of these questions, I'll be honest. and And I think just to our listeners, I get no visibility of the questions that you send through. So, you know, it's just that we like, like,

06:00.68
futurizm
I think we're lying there. I did send you the questions!

06:05.54
Will Grady 
I just didn't look.

06:06.68
futurizm
yeah

06:09.99
futurizm
I've said you them so many times and they've been ready for months or weeks.

06:14.58
Will Grady 
know Yeah, sorry about that.

06:16.13
futurizm
It's all right mate.

06:16.59
Will Grady 
I i understand.

06:17.85
futurizm
Yeah.

06:19.41
Will Grady 
So basically, the millennial, two degrees, you can't get a job. I mean, I just think, I mean,

06:23.48
futurizm
Yeah.

06:29.04
Will Grady 
I'm trying to think, do I give answer this diplomatically? No, I don't answer it diplomatically. I mean, four fucking years, he's been, he's had two degrees and he's not had a job in four years. I mean, you know, sorry to hear that he's, you know, not, I think there's some truth in it. There's elements of truth, isn't it? That perhaps, you know, employers are way too ambitious about sort of minimum requirements that people have. And ultimately they'll say, oh yeah, you need a minimum experience of this or a minimum experience of that. And how can you get that experience, you know, ultimately?

06:59.42
Will Grady 
Um, you need someone who needs to take a chance on you. Um, but it kind of makes me feel that the four years and you've not had a job, even, you know, maybe stacking shelves or in a, in a really kind of simple kind of position. There's gotta be something wrong with this dude. No.

07:15.65
futurizm
It's, well, I'm quite aware that obviously Roland's not here to defend himself. and And Roland, if you are listening, which you probably are, you you give us a call.

07:20.11
Will Grady 
Give us a call.

07:23.97
futurizm
You're more than welcome to come on and we can see what we can do to help you. um But Will, do you think that degrees are worth what they once were?

07:34.63
futurizm
um It is odd that they haven't opened any doors for him, especially considering that he has a master's, which you would think would help him stand out. Or do you think it's to do with journalism and industry that's struggling at the moment?

07:49.24
Will Grady 
Well, I mean, you're the journalist, you know, you do know it's better than I do. But I mean, obviously, if you've got a ah master's, I mean, you would kind of feel that, you know, with but his education, he would certainly be gainfully employed by now in some capacity, he may not be doing exactly what he wants to be doing.

08:09.60
Will Grady 
um it's ah It's an emotive topic, the question about degrees. And actually, I got kind of embroiled in a kind of slight LinkedIn debate a week or so ago about this purely about computer science, really.

08:18.59
futurizm
Oh yeah.

08:22.40
Will Grady 
So um there was a person on LinkedIn basically saying, look, degrees are America. bloody expensive. I mean, I think $100,000 you can go do your computer science degree.

08:36.80
Will Grady 
I can't remember if that was including master's or not. Not entirely sure. I think it was. But it basically costed absolutely fortune to graduate in the States.

08:46.44
futurizm
Yeah.

08:47.13
Will Grady 
And then ultimately you come out with a shit ton of debt and you still can't get a job. And this person was ultimately questioning exactly what as we're doing here now, the colour the the validity of it.

09:00.58
Will Grady 
um My take on it is that there are so many roles out there still that require strong theoretical knowledge. um So for example, I know hiring managers that I've worked with absolutely would insist on somebody having a degree in certain areas, certainly in technical areas.

09:08.52
futurizm
Okay.

09:19.74
Will Grady 
I would imagine most definitely in things like engineering, I would imagine certainly in things like law, in medicine, you know there's always going to be jobs that will require you know that kind of strong theoretical knowledge.

09:35.21
futurizm
Yeah it wouldn't really inspire you if your brain surgeon didn't have a degree of some sort before the operation.

09:42.69
Will Grady 
True, true. And I suppose that's why people go overseas to get their brains operated on, no? um But mate, I don't know. um it' It's a really interesting one because you know me, my view on the tech world is that I'm a big ambassador of people.

10:00.78
Will Grady 
going to go and do things like professional certifications. I'm a big ambassador of people having a more practical knowledge and going to do personal projects as well and things like that. But at the same time, exactly as you've articulated, like, you know, would you want your brain surgeon not to have a degree in brain surgery or obviously medicine or whatever it might be? Probably not.

10:24.00
futurizm
Yeah, well, it does bring me on nicely to my next question, Will. As you know, students in the UK, they received their A-level results a couple of weeks ago. Those are the exams that you take when you're around about 18 before university or college and university chiefs in the UK. Now, they've come out and said, quote, that pupils should choose a degree they enjoy over one based on future earning potential.

10:54.37
futurizm
Now, what do you make of that? Because I wasn't really given any advice when I did my A levels on future earning potential. They were just like, go what you enjoy, go with what you're you're good at. But you can imagine that people, for example, who um really like the humanities might be at a disadvantage. There's someone who say he's good at maths or physics or maybe something like that where they could go into to engineering. and What are your thoughts?

11:25.83
Will Grady 
So when I was a unit at university, when I was at school, I wanted to be a stockbroker. I mean, what a twat, basically.

11:33.17
futurizm
ah

11:34.36
Will Grady 
um i watch I genuinely remember opening up the career book and saying to my teacher, this is what I want to do. I want to go and be a stockbroker. And for anybody that knows me or for anybody that doesn't know me, I am actually a qualified stockbroker.

11:50.06
Will Grady 
However, not a very good one because ultimately I wouldn't be having this podcast right now and doing what I'm doing if I was any good. It's not broken. um I think one of the major factors of of that was, yes, I was quite interested in it, but also because it pays you know really, really well if you if you're very good at it.

12:02.30
futurizm
Uh-huh.

12:12.53
Will Grady 
um So that was a big appeal to me. um Again, it's kind of a it feels like a safe answer, but it kind of a bit of both, isn't it? I mean, you don't want to go and study something that's totally dull because you just won't enjoy it at all.

12:28.01
futurizm
but Well, yeah, I mean.

12:28.51
Will Grady 
But you need to protect your financial interest as well, don't you?

12:31.22
futurizm
of Of course. I mean, it's all it's all good and well um doing something you enjoy. But say if I had a child of university age and they really, really, really liked David Beckham and they wanted to do David Beckham studies at Staffordshire, I'd probably advise them against it. Although the irony is they probably wouldn't be excluded from the retail or service sectors, unlike our friend, Roland.

12:59.84
Will Grady 
What's wrong with Staffordshire, mate?

13:01.25
futurizm
ah Nothing wrong with Staffordshire, it's just the David Beckham degree ah I would take issue with. a ah Nothing wrong with David Beckham, but maybe doing a degree in David Beckham probably won't set you up as, say, a degree in something else.

13:09.96
Will Grady 
What's wrong with David Beckham?

13:18.97
futurizm
And that brings me on to my list of so-called Mickey Mouse degrees, Will. and I'm just gonna run them past here. I've got 12 Mickey Mouse degrees.

13:31.02
futurizm
ah The first one is Harry Potter and law. You can do at a top law university in India. Doesn't sound too bad.

13:38.11
Will Grady 
how Harry

13:40.49
futurizm
Harry Potter and law. Yeah, in the seminar, it has an interface.

13:42.50
Will Grady 
It's not that's given that had to give a balance to it, just to make sure. So like I don't know, like when when your daughter goes, like, Mum, I'm off to go and study Harry Potter, and then Mum's kind of having a heart heart attack on the floor, and then she goes, and law.

13:53.44
futurizm
Yeah.

13:57.20
Will Grady 
And she's like, oh, it's OK then, fine.

13:57.24
futurizm
ah lawsu yeah Yeah, it's a classic shit sandwich. ah yes It says students will participate in 45 hours of discussion about parallels between the legal system and social structures in Harry Potter and real life situations.

14:14.65
futurizm
So, yeah.

14:15.79
Will Grady 
What a load of bollocks. Okay.

14:17.62
futurizm
All right, well, number two, politicizing Beyonce. um That's in New Jersey, the Simpsons and philosophy.

14:21.33
Will Grady 
Oh, for fuck's sake.

14:26.73
futurizm
ah Number three.

14:28.31
Will Grady 
i'd be That'd be quite interesting, wouldn't it? Because, I mean, let's face it, the Simpsons is quite philosophical.

14:33.36
futurizm
It is. It is. it's I mean, it's a cult cartoon. um And this course in particular has two units where students explore questions such as, does Homer's infamous doll? Awful impression there. ah What does that really say about his existential self? And is Marge's voluminous hair life affirming or a symbol of the degradation of our society?

14:57.74
futurizm
um

14:58.12
Will Grady 
so Sorry, could you just do your Homer Simpson impression again for the benefit of our listeners?

15:02.57
futurizm
DON'T! How's is yours any better?

15:10.42
Will Grady 
<unk>s no and i'm not

15:13.87
futurizm
Alright, next one. Harry Potter and the Age of Illusion.

15:23.32
Will Grady 
Oh fuck off Harry Potter.

15:25.03
futurizm
All right then, um black women, Beyonce and popular culture. That's in the University of Texas. Here we are.

15:32.13
Will Grady 
this

15:32.46
futurizm
Sex toy design.

15:32.63
Will Grady 
there There's sex toy design.

15:35.40
futurizm
I mean, someone's got to do it, haven't they?

15:38.26
Will Grady 
Could you imagine the people on the course?

15:39.07
futurizm
You know. yeah

15:40.94
Will Grady 
Who would they be? What would the demographic of that course be?

15:42.39
futurizm
and Well. I'd dread to think ah thought maybe ah you know a degree in engineering would sort of qualify you for that.

15:51.42
Will Grady 
Product.

15:52.33
futurizm
Anyway, number seven, one that I might be ah overqualified overqualified for wasting time on the internet.

16:01.92
Will Grady 
that's a degree

16:03.03
futurizm
It's a degree in 2014, Pennsylvania University launched that course called Wasting Time on the Internet, and basically it involves students communicating with each other for three hours a week on social media and chat rooms only, and the conversations would then contribute towards a substantial work of literature.

16:24.24
futurizm
There's four more to go.

16:24.45
Will Grady 
That's a degree.

16:26.93
futurizm
Arguing with Judge Judy, um zombie studies,

16:33.61
Will Grady 
say.

16:33.69
futurizm
No, not impressed.

16:33.96
Will Grady 
No.

16:34.80
futurizm
Lady Gaga and the Sociology of Fame. um That's the University of South Carolina. Here we are. One for you, Will. The Fallis Course. um That's in Los Angeles.

16:47.57
Will Grady 
Okay.

16:48.16
futurizm
And and yeah David Beckham Studies, number 12.

16:51.56
Will Grady 
So that's a that's a genuine idea.

16:51.47
futurizm
12-week module.

16:53.87
Will Grady 
I thought you were bullshitted about your daughter.

16:54.64
futurizm
Yeah, no, I wasn't bullshitting. No. It is ah the ah much maligned, it says here, 12-week module at Staffordshire University was offered as part of the BA in sports, media and culture back in 2000. And it includes topics such as Bexham's, sorry, David Beckham's ever-evolving hairstyles, the state of his marriage with Victoria, and his status as the object of a great many fantasies.

17:21.87
futurizm
um So yeah, yeah, anyway, I think we've strayed quite far from our discussion of Roland's Travis and his search for a job.

17:31.27
Will Grady 
The series. But serious point on that.

17:35.50
futurizm
Yeah.

17:36.36
Will Grady 
So when we think about you, out you mentioned about the fiscal side of things as well, you know, and people choosing studies that are fun over kind of fiscal benefit, or that's what's the recommendation has been.

17:40.45
futurizm
Yeah.

17:49.05
Will Grady 
um But take nurses, for example, um in the UK, they're paid, unfortunately, really, really poorly. And lots of people are deterred by going to study that simply on the basis that, well, they know that by the time they finish it, they're going to get paid, you know, completely, you know, they're going to be completely underpaid.

18:03.46
futurizm
Yeah.

18:09.75
Will Grady 
So, you know, it's an interesting one.

18:10.12
futurizm
Yeah.

18:14.02
futurizm
It's an emotive topic. um I've got just a couple more questions now on Roland before we move on. Will, I just wanted to get your thoughts on his approach to job hunting. um He says he's on the mailing list of six online job boards, applies to roles in person rather than online when possible, and looks for any job that he feels qualified for. And he's also doing Harvard's creative writing program to upskill himself.

18:40.41
futurizm
as it were um where do you think he's going wrong or or what more do you suggest that he could do we can certainly try and reach out to him yeah

18:46.57
Will Grady 
So others you know what, fair play. Like, so obviously I was, I'm going to somewhat retract my comment there on Roland. Um, can we try and find this guy by the way? Can we see if we can find him on LinkedIn? Maybe we can, because like, okay, so he's got his mask. So clearly he's a bright guy. Yeah. So he's done his masters. Um, he's not been able to find gainful employment in four years. I don't know where whereabouts in the States was he from? Did he, did he have that information?

19:16.53
futurizm
Uh, one, so a Virginia, sorry, he's a Virginia based millennial.

19:22.33
Will Grady 
OK, so I don't know much about Virginia. Excuse me. Anybody from Virginia listening? Probably unlikely, but you know. um But i you know, I don't know kind of what the economy is like there, but you know, surely in the last four years, there must have been opportunities. But it sounds to me like some of those things that you were doing was pretty would certainly be enough to get you a job. And I love it that he's going to see people in person. That's cool.

19:47.83
futurizm
ah Yeah, yeah, and he he is a bright person, as you say, he's got two degrees, he's got a master's, he's also a published author, um because he's relying on some of the funds from his book to support himself, as well as student loans, insurance from the death of his father and his mum's disability payments.

20:09.42
futurizm
um

20:11.98
futurizm
do you Do you think you should be considering a role in the gig economy, Will, to keep the cash coming in, something like Uber Eats, as it work as an Uber driver, or something like that?

20:26.53
Will Grady 
Hang on a minute. So I'm going to retract this a little bit. You've only just told me that his father's died and you and he's getting, I mean, you could have told me that before I started laying into him.

20:36.32
futurizm
Yeah, you could have read the questions first, mate.

20:47.65
Will Grady 
I feel really bad now. I feel like I'm going to go into hell.

20:50.45
futurizm
No, but he's also... Right, I'm going to cut this bit, so this is this is off the record.

20:54.25
Will Grady 
Yeah.

20:54.59
futurizm
He's also relying on his mum's disability payments to support himself, and I'm relying on many of you!

20:59.66
Will Grady 
don't cut that don't cut that so basically what you're saying is rolling into massive leech that is harsh on his mummy that's tough on his mum yeah but you don't have to get i mean if you hey look nothing against an uber eats driver or um delivery or whatever people use in terms of

21:00.76
futurizm
yeah

21:06.64
futurizm
poor disabled mob. These particular payments. You know, so this is why I'm thinking, you know, maybe it should work as the gig economy. so

21:26.32
Will Grady 
deliveries and what have you, but there's loads of other things you can do. I mean, if he's, for example, if he's an author, yeah, get yourself on bloody Fiverr or Upwork or any kind of other kind of freelancing website and do some copywriting or whatever it might be.

21:42.64
Will Grady 
I mean, you got to get creative, yeah, a little bit.

21:44.82
futurizm
Yeah.

21:45.61
Will Grady 
I don't know if he's if you tried that, but, you know, I think even in this day and age now, like everybody's got, you know,

21:45.50
futurizm
yeah

21:53.05
Will Grady 
nine to fives and what have you. I strongly believe that if you don't have a side hustle in this day and age, you probably, and then unless you're in an absolute fortune in the job that you're in, I just don't think you're going to kind of achieve financial independence because the world's so fucked. I'm sorry to be so pessimistic. um But then in addition to that as well, it's just like, well,

22:20.14
Will Grady 
the world we're living in there's no such thing as a steady nine to five anymore so getting yourself involved in things like side hustles and gig economy consulting or whatever it might be or setting up your own business i ah highly recommend it i mean personally i wish i'd done it a lot a lot earlier um and you know i think for anybody out there who and again you've got so much technology to leverage now in ai um where you could actually go and

22:38.00
futurizm
Yeah.

22:49.40
Will Grady 
do a lot of the work via AI enabling you to produce certain things and then add your creativity to it in, you know, a fraction of the time of how long it used to be done. So, again, for anybody that's kind of in between jobs or is thinking that they want to make some extra money, go and go and leverage AI and go and start obscuring yourself and get some psychics on the go.

23:14.18
futurizm
And I think, and I know I've been saying this, sorry, one final thought before we go. Will, as a recruiter, what would this gap in employment on his resume look like? Obviously, he's been doing his creative writing course, but he still hasn't had a job in his desired profession. What would it look like to you as a recruiter?

23:41.19
Will Grady 
Yeah, I mean, it's ah it's a personal choice, I think, for a lot of recruiters. They are, some can really not like to see gaps on resumes and you create some ambiguity, creates question marks. So I think if I were him, I'd look to kind of try and fill in some of those gaps by saying that, yeah, he's been doing such a personal project or whatever it may be. um You may want to kind of I do worry as well.

24:09.03
Will Grady 
I mean, going back to kind of what you mentioned, and, you know, I wish you'd told me before, but again, granted, probably should have read the questions. um but It's just how I roll. I like to be gon' co. I'm, you know, I'm somebody that just likes to get stuck in at the beginning.

24:22.87
Will Grady 
But but because he's...

24:23.48
futurizm
ah like to be well prepared

24:25.80
Will Grady 
Yeah, but that's and that's why we work so well. We're chalking cheese. You're well prepared.

24:29.43
futurizm
yeah

24:30.76
Will Grady 
I'm less so. um

24:32.21
futurizm
ah maverick

24:33.20
Will Grady 
Yeah, but he makes makes me wonder as well, and I suppose putting my recruiter head on a little bit, because I've got this information now, is that you mentioned his mum's disability allowance, maybe he's been looking after his mum, but also taking money from her.

24:48.95
futurizm
I like to be well prepared.

24:50.01
Will Grady 
But then you're supposed to laugh, by the way, at that. um

24:53.39
futurizm
ah Sorry.

24:56.13
Will Grady 
And then also his dad died. And I don't know how soon his dad died, but ah obviously I don't think we need to go down that rabbit hole.

25:00.42
futurizm
now No.

25:02.93
Will Grady 
But he may have had some issues for a few years where he was sorting his shit out, you know?

25:04.03
futurizm
No.

25:06.99
Will Grady 
So I think that's the point I'm trying to make is that life happens. And I think with recruiters, they need to be a lot more cognizant of that. So if there's a gap on someone's CV resume, it might not be because death they were sacked.

25:22.66
Will Grady 
It may not be because you know they weren't hired immediately because they're shit.

25:23.22
futurizm
Yeah.

25:26.87
Will Grady 
It might be because, you know what? Actually, I left that job because it was rubbish. I had a toxic boss. And I wanted to take some time out for myself, or I don't know you had some personal issues or actually I decided that I wanted to go and spend some time with I don't know some friends I've not seen him, the other end of the planet. And you know what, it's no one's fucking business. And I just kind of think People are allowed to have gaps in resumes.

25:51.25
Will Grady 
And if you start to get people question, OK, if it's a five-year gap, I think you're probably entitled to ask a question like, hey, look, what happened in between that five years? Because that's a decent period of time. Recruiters dig into things like three to six months.

26:05.13
Will Grady 
And it's like, oh, fuck off. Come on.

26:06.74
futurizm
Yeah.

26:07.32
Will Grady 
Life.

26:07.23
futurizm
Yeah. That's just nothing really three to six months.

26:07.88
Will Grady 
ah Life happened.

26:09.75
futurizm
God's sake.

26:10.85
Will Grady 
That's what happened.

26:11.79
futurizm
Yeah. Well, on that note, if you are listeners or anyone you know is or has been in a position similar to Roland and would like to share that experience with us, please do contact me at pete at futurism.io. We'll certainly read your comments out or even speak to you in an upcoming episode. Mate, do you want to move on now to Amazon bar raises or do you want to end there? What are you thinking?

26:41.76
Will Grady 
What did you think of that? Can you you could cut this out or do you want to?

26:46.54
futurizm
No, I could cut admit i'll cut this bit out. Yeah, this our chat now. Yeah.

26:49.83
Will Grady 
Yeah.

26:49.78
futurizm
So we're at 20, 26, 27 minutes.

26:52.35
Will Grady 
Yeah. Yeah.

26:53.21
futurizm
Amazon bar raises. Do you want to get stuck in to it?

26:56.59
Will Grady 
I think we probably should because of the value it brings.

26:59.90
futurizm
Right. Okay. Because it's Amazon. Yeah. Okay. No worries, mate. Well, I'll, I'll run the, um, the transition and we'll get stuck in.

27:03.88
Will Grady 
I mean,

27:06.85
Will Grady 
Interestingly, I mean, I thought we probably cut close to the bone on a few things on that on the beginning of the pod.

27:12.06
futurizm
but ah In what way?

27:14.43
Will Grady 
No, I think because we had a good bit of banter and I think actually, you know, what's nothing wrong with that?

27:20.13
futurizm
yeah No, I agree mate. I might chuck out that. I might cut out the bit where I say that the fallest degree might be one for you. ah

27:27.89
Will Grady 
Well, I'll leave that with you, mate. I didn't I didn't take any offence whatsoever.

27:32.06
futurizm
No, no, no.

27:32.31
Will Grady 
but

27:32.42
futurizm
I no i know don't know. But ah the people listening might think it might be a gay joke or something.

27:37.51
Will Grady 
I don't care.

27:38.04
futurizm
So which it which it was. ah you

27:39.87
Will Grady 
I don't...

27:42.42
futurizm
open and

27:46.41
Will Grady 
I could see you in the next episode to all our game listeners.

27:47.05
futurizm
and and

27:52.63
Will Grady 
I'm really sorry if I caused a mess.

27:52.91
futurizm
Yeah, I'd like to apologize. Yeah. We've been reviewed everywhere.

28:00.43
Will Grady 
Ofcom have been in touch and given me a slap on the wrist.

28:03.49
futurizm
Yeah.

28:05.55
Will Grady 
And the phobic.

28:05.90
futurizm
Yeah.

28:06.96
Will Grady 
Jokes, bullying, bullying will of the Father God.

28:06.88
futurizm
yeah

28:10.21
futurizm
Yeah.

28:10.89
Will Grady 
absolutely

28:12.27
futurizm
And and i might get that I might cut the bit out as well where we laugh at him for taking his mum's disability payments.

28:16.98
Will Grady 
No, don't, don't.

28:23.65
Will Grady 
Poor he's got absolute peace.

28:23.61
futurizm
ah I know. I know he's got beasted mate.

28:26.68
Will Grady 
He's got peace.

28:28.16
futurizm
He's got beasted. Oh dear.

28:32.93
Will Grady 
Okay, I've got, let's go.

28:33.47
futurizm
Oh dear mate. Alright then let's go.

28:36.12
Will Grady 
Round two.

28:36.71
futurizm
i'll play I'll play the transition and we'll get stuck into Amazon bar raises. Right, let's do it.

28:47.35
futurizm
but Moving on now to Amazon raising the bar. and Will, as a former Amazon recruiter, you might actually have to jump in here because I was reading this article on Business Insider. Where else? Better than Unilad that we had in the last episode. and May, the there was like so much jargon, so many acronyms. Honestly, I struggled to get through.

29:11.07
futurizm
So I might need your help. And I'm sure anyone working at Amazon will probably understand what this means anyway. So let me give it a stab. Amazon's bringing back bar raises for entry level software positions or SDE-1 brackets L4 positions.

29:28.99
futurizm
And bar raises, correct me if I'm wrong, are generally people from another team who are meant to be more objective and test a candidate's knowledge on Amazon's principles.

29:38.40
Will Grady 
Mm hmm.

29:39.12
futurizm
So far so good.

29:40.33
Will Grady 
So yeah, you're doing Stella Stella.

29:41.40
futurizm
But okay, so Amazon, they removed this during the pandemic hiring boom. ah That's led to a drop in the quality of employees. Isn't that when you got a will?

29:55.03
futurizm
shit

29:56.03
Will Grady 
No, I, a I started Amazon in 2019.

29:56.12
futurizm
No, no.

30:02.75
Will Grady 
So you can fuck right off.

30:04.56
futurizm
Okay, okay, right. What in the of balance, this is what Amazon has said and I have got an AI voice to read it out for. So here's what Amazon said.

30:18.31
Will Grady 
and okay

30:37.95
futurizm
I mean, that's, yeah, not the best AI.

30:39.57
Will Grady 
Okay.

30:40.82
futurizm
It was free on the internet.

30:43.92
Will Grady 
Hmm.

30:43.97
futurizm
But before we dig deeper into it, Will, and what this means for both Amazon and people applying to work there, I just need to get this off my chest. I really can't stand wanky corporate jargon.

30:57.79
futurizm
I'm sorry, but when I worked at Reuters, it was full of it. So for example, if they would up pick

31:04.91
Will Grady 
You weren't that long there, were you? You weren't that long.

31:06.42
futurizm
Oh, no, because of the jargon.

31:10.72
futurizm
For example, they would up pick videos, which would mean taking them from another source, or if they're expecting something, they would have to out watch it, I think.

31:20.87
Will Grady 
Oh.

31:21.87
futurizm
and I mean why don't you say let's pick the video up pick it up or watch out for it I mean I don't say I'm on putting my coat to go outside or off getting the bus at my stop getting off the bus putting my coat on I don't even like onboarding to be honest why don't they just call it an induction what was Amazon like when you were there when it came to corporate jargon

31:47.00
Will Grady 
Yeah, I mean, i think yeah I think the whole world of tech is pretty corporate jargony. So you mentioned SDE1, was it earlier?

31:54.33
futurizm
Yeah, no idea what that means.

31:55.25
Will Grady 
So that's Software Development Engineer, um and then Level 1, so that'd be like a junior software development engineer.

32:01.88
futurizm
Right.

32:04.06
Will Grady 
um But yeah, mate, I mean, I don't think anybody enjoys it. And it's really shit when you start a new company, because everybody speaks in these acronyms and know this kind of corporate jargon.

32:13.56
futurizm
Yeah.

32:15.45
Will Grady 
And you're like, sorry, what? and then date but And most of the time, they're completely oblivious about your inability to understand it, understandably, that you can't understand it.

32:17.13
futurizm
Yeah.

32:25.21
Will Grady 
And it's just shit. In fact, that's a really fucking good thing, actually, for onboarding or getting started or induction.

32:31.37
futurizm
Mm hmm.

32:33.49
Will Grady 
give you a load of information about these acronyms. They're everywhere because it's really fucking hard.

32:39.77
futurizm
ah glossary you know I even asked someone my my boss at Reuters I was like why do you speak like this and he was German so English wasn't his first language although he spoke it brilliantly and I think he'd been there so long that he didn't even know he didn't even realize that it was jargon you know it was it was only when I pointed out was oh yeah

32:53.83
Will Grady 
Yeah.

33:00.14
futurizm
um So yeah, and it made me want to sort of rebel against it. You know, it made me not want to speak like them for some reason, because I just found it so irritating. I'm not going to say I'm going to up pick a video or out watch a video. but So yeah, look out for it. You know, just anyway, let's get back to the story. Will, were you a bar raiser or did you have one in your interview or both?

33:24.29
Will Grady 
So I wasn't a bar raiser. So a bar raiser is kind of a privilege within Amazon in in many regards. So you have to have interviewed, I think it's a minimum of 100 interviews from what I recall.

33:38.05
futurizm
Wow.

33:39.41
Will Grady 
um within Amazon to then get bar raiser status. And then in addition to that as well, I think you have to go through quite a bit of extensive training to become a bar raiser as well.

33:51.82
Will Grady 
So I wasn't a bar raiser, but I was on a lot of interviews with bar raisers.

33:58.65
futurizm
and Okay.

33:59.29
Will Grady 
And yeah, I was interviewed by a bar raiser because unlike what you said, it was pre-COVID when I was hired.

34:06.86
futurizm
Okay. Yeah. Okay. Just for the point taken, Will corrected.

34:10.69
Will Grady 
yeah Yeah.

34:12.04
futurizm
From the outside interviews at this bit, from the outside interviews at big tech firms, they do seem really daunting. And you often see these interview questions on, on social media that seem impossible to solve.

34:24.95
futurizm
Are they really that scary?

34:28.91
Will Grady 
I don't think so, no. um I think the these companies put themselves in these big fucking pedestals that it's an honour to go and work for these organisations and they, you know of course, you know companies like Amazon, Google, Apple, or where they are c incredibly successful companies. So, and very, very desirable. And I think people will understand that. And ultimately as well, the competition to get into these companies is really large. So it's already skewed in many regards because

34:58.61
futurizm
Yeah.

34:59.83
Will Grady 
Basically, it's a company-driven interview, not a candidate-led interview. The company has all the power, and they know that. So that's why people, I think, go into interviews nervous, slightly scared. I wouldn't say, personally, they are hard, but I speak probably from a perspective that, well, I've got into those businesses, and you know thankfully, they saw something in me.

35:23.81
Will Grady 
in my interviews at least, to to to to be hired. But at the same time, I'd sat on the other side of the fence for them. So it's difficult for me to say how daunting it is until I think you're really sitting in that position yourself.

35:37.41
Will Grady 
but um And people just don't like interviews. But i the big ambassadors of these days are moving away from rehearsing too much for an interview and actually allowing yourself to be a little bit more genuine and authentic.

35:51.40
Will Grady 
um And I think

35:52.27
futurizm
Similar attitude to the podcast as well.

35:54.50
Will Grady 
That's how we roll, isn't it? Yeah, that's how we roll.

35:55.96
futurizm
Yeah.

35:56.82
Will Grady 
you know You're prepared. You're the one with the questions. I'll just turn up and and get the job.

36:01.17
futurizm
recent yeah ah Nice Do you think this introduction, does this introduction of bar raises basically mean that it'll now be harder for candidates of entry-level software positions now to get a job there?

36:15.36
Will Grady 
Yeah, I think so. So bar raisers.

36:17.07
futurizm
Brilliant.

36:17.58
Will Grady 
I started many interviews with bar raisers.

36:21.94
Will Grady 
They, I mean, that their main purpose is that, you know, they're very, very experienced Amazonians. they So there's an acronym or a corporate jargon for you.

36:31.32
futurizm
It doesn't mean they're from the forest in Brazil.

36:33.42
Will Grady 
No, they're not from Brazil. No, they're they're Amazonians, though.

36:35.47
futurizm
No.

36:38.19
Will Grady 
And they've done a lot of training. They've done a lot of interviews. And ultimately, they yeah they're an objective third-party advisor. and but they have massive power so ultimately the bar raiser can actually make the final decision in the interview so i've seen interview situations where there have been you know split panels so some people go yeah we want to hire this guy other people say no and the bar raiser will kind of mediate those discussions. ah Usually they are the person that will drive the conversation throughout the panel. And if the panel is split, typically they will be the one that will make the decision so they're very powerful.

37:19.53
Will Grady 
um they very objective and the the two leadership principles that they tend to focus on for Amazon because Amazon have a plethora of leadership principles that they tend to kind of live by but one of them is earned trust and that's typically a question that comes from the bar raiser and One of the things that's so important about earned trust is that you can't coach it. Amazon state very clearly that that's something that is not coachable. You cannot

37:53.17
Will Grady 
I'm going to coach somebody to earn trust. yeah You're either trustworthy or you're not in many regards.

37:58.15
futurizm
right

37:59.44
Will Grady 
um So if a bar user picks up that you're not trustworthy, or you're talking shit, or I don't know, whatever it may be, you know that it's a red flag or ah a negative indicator for them, you ain't getting hired.

38:13.29
Will Grady 
Because, yeah, if you're not earning trust, because Amazon has such a focus on customer centricity.

38:17.60
futurizm
Right.

38:19.79
Will Grady 
So if your customers don't trust you,

38:20.12
futurizm
Mm hmm.

38:23.05
Will Grady 
you're not going to get anywhere, are you? So, yeah, I think it's going to be a lot harder with ah with the bar raisers back at the interview.

38:29.52
futurizm
is the any way so is there may may i fuck i can't speak um Is there any way a candidate should prepare for an interview with a bar raiser that's different to how they normally prepare for an interview, for example, at Amazon, anything extra they can do or just be well prepared?

38:49.30
Will Grady 
I think um And just going back to my point, really, about how I feel the interviews are changing. And I think if you know a bar raiser is going to be on your interview, don't try and bullshit your way through it.

39:03.94
Will Grady 
So if they ask you a question and you don't know the answer, fucking fucking tell them you don't know the answer.

39:08.22
futurizm
Mm hmm.

39:10.81
Will Grady 
There's nothing wrong with saying, sorry, and I'm not sure actually on that. um However, based on my sort of knowledge in that area, which might be quite limited, I would probably do it like this. Or if they ask you a question, for example, where, you know, there's been a time where, you know, you've made a mistake, or something's gone wrong. You know, again, don't be frightened to kind of show some self awareness and honesty and humility by saying, well, actually, yeah, I've made loads of mistakes. And actually, there was a mistake I made. I don't know.

39:41.70
Will Grady 
four weeks ago, this happened, this happened, this happened, but this is what I learned. And this is where you're earning the trust. You know, bar raisers are there to kind of understand your self-awareness, your emotional intelligence, and that earns trust piece is so, so important.

39:58.83
Will Grady 
So I think

39:59.73
futurizm
Mm hmm.

40:00.65
Will Grady 
like but My advice really for a bar is just be really open, humble, authentic, and honest. And even if it shows you in a negative light, just twist that into a you know what you learned from it.

40:11.93
Will Grady 
And I think you'll be in a good place.

40:12.21
futurizm
Yeah. And final thought, Will, and I think you've probably answered this already, but do you think that the reintroduction of bar racers will improve the quality of the people that they hire?

40:26.55
Will Grady 
Yeah, I mean, bluntly speaking, yes, I do. I think I actually I think bar raises are a good idea because they're objective, um because they're very, very experienced. um So I think in in short, yes, I do. I think there'll be a big positive influence on Amazon's hiring process.

40:45.33
futurizm
Nice one. Well, I hope that we've raised the bar here at the Futurism podcast, as always.

40:49.92
Will Grady 
not Not sure about that, not sure about that.

40:51.11
futurizm
but Well, if you're not sure and you do know how we can improve, do send your thoughts and comments to Pete at Futurism.io.

41:06.89
futurizm
ah Finally, while talking of feedback, we do have some more on Apple Podcasts and this one is titled Engaging and Insightful and Must Listen for CV Tips. So this is from Marichka and It says, I absolutely love the direction this podcast is heading. The chemistry between the presenter and the expert is fantastic, engaging, insightful, and it feels like a genuine conversation that really puts you in. I'm especially thankful for the thoughtful discussion on crafting a CV, which was last episode, with a focus on that one page format nightmare, as well as applicant tracking systems optimization and the role of the AI in the process.

41:48.20
futurizm
These are such relevant concerns for so many of us today. I'm really excited to see where you take this next. Pretty sure that the upcoming content will be just as spot on and incredibly useful for those looking to elevate their career or seeking other opportunities. Keep up the great work, looking forward to more. So what do you think of that, mate?

42:04.96
Will Grady 
Jesus, that sir that was really comprehensive, wasn't it?

42:07.31
futurizm
I know. Marijka in Switzerland, that was from?

42:10.39
Will Grady 
Not an old flame of yours then.

42:12.58
futurizm
No.

42:15.05
Will Grady 
Are you sure?

42:20.74
futurizm
Just a fan of the show.

42:22.20
Will Grady 
Just to follow the show. OK, fair enough.

42:23.27
futurizm
Yeah.

42:24.17
Will Grady 
OK, no. that I mean, hey, thank you for that. That's that's really kind. um I still feel that we should track down Roland. I think that is a definite attempt.

42:32.60
futurizm
Yes.

42:34.68
Will Grady 
We should try and do get him on the show. He might bother you, though, for being a little bit unfair. um

42:40.40
futurizm
I can take it.

42:42.06
Will Grady 
Yeah, I know. And I'll promise for the next podcast, I will read the questions.

42:46.14
futurizm
OK, well, I look forward to that. um Well, it's all. Well, all that's left to do is to say goodbye and thanks for listening. That's all from me, Peter Scott, and...

42:57.22
Will Grady 
Well, Grady.

42:58.94
futurizm
and we'll see you next time.